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Poster: patkelleyPA Date: Feb 27, 2011 5:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

there is indeed a more overrated song than Terrapin. It's called "Dark Star."

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Poster: William Tell Date: Feb 27, 2011 5:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

Yikes; whipper-snapper!

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Poster: midnightcarousel Date: Feb 27, 2011 6:06am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

How can Dark Star be overrated? It's not even a song. To say it's overrated is to say the dead's improvisational skills are overrated.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Feb 27, 2011 7:34am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

He can't hear the Dead's improvisational skills.

We are all capable of listening, but not everyone can hear...

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Poster: midnightcarousel Date: Feb 27, 2011 7:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

I'm well aware of this fact; I find it exceedingly odd that he is a fan of the Dead, though; to me the whole idea of Dark Star defines what the band IS to me.

It really kills me that the whole idea of improvisational music is essentially dead to my generation; most people my age (college) don't even really know that it exists, and when I play something like dark star or even the 8/6/71 Hard to Handle with the outrageous 2-minute or whatever guitar solo from Garcia, they don't even hear it! It's hard not to lose faith in the ability of my friends when none of then even REACT to this music.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Feb 27, 2011 8:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

Geez, MC. Aren't there any folks of your generational acquaintance who are into jam bands? Or is even that too old? Really, what DO they like? Is it all about slick or mechanical and computer-enhanced, or what? (Maybe you'll have to wait for my son to get to college. He's almost 15 and really into Dark Star and the jazzier/jammier GD stuff ... although that may be his survival skills, too, LOL!)

On Dark Star: I'd say there's what you could call Dark Star-ness, and then there's Dark Star. The idea of DS may define a big part of what the GD is, manifested in so many ways depending on the tune that provides the opening, but DS itself has a fairly specific mood (or set of possible moods): to me, it's pretty meditative and interior-focused, so the improvisations tend to take off from that mood in one way or another. I wasn't particularly drawn to DS initially (hearing only the version on Live/Dead) although I was very attracted to jamming in general and the really "out-there" '60s stuff in general.

I'd imagine there are lots of folks who don't experience the Dark Stars themselves as their Ultimate Dead Moments, but who very much "get it" about Dark Star-ness in TOO, or Eyes, or Shakedown, or whatever. In that context, since DS is so revered, I could easily see someone having an irreverent bah-humbug moment and saying it's "over-rated" without meaning that they don't "get" what you could call Dark Star-ness.

Semantics ... yeah, maybe ... but hey, you're in college, right? There's gotta be a paper in there. After all, there's a famous essay on how Minimalism is Baroque (says the one-time art history major), so why not a paper on how All Dead is Dark Star but Dark Star is Not All Dead? :-)



This post was modified by AltheaRose on 2011-02-28 04:52:45

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Poster: midnightcarousel Date: Feb 27, 2011 9:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

Ooh I dig that last suggestion for an essay title. I managed to pass a somewhat questionable essay about the Grateful Dead off as a B+ in a European History class last spring, so I'm not going to tempt fate further.

This is my last semester in college (hopefully grad school next, in math, but we'll see). I have to say that I _have_ had more success in pushing the Grateful Dead on people more recently, and many people are very, very hip to the jazz gods of the 20th century. So for that I give them credit.

For whatever reason, though, I don't know anybody who's that into jam bands. There's been a lot of buzz recently about the new Radiohead album (about the only popular band I like), and there's a lot to be said for the mechanical and static nature of studio albums, but yeah, Radiohead doesn't _jam_. Although I'd love to see them do it, as I'm sure they'd be excellent improvisers (very, very talented instrumentalists).

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Feb 27, 2011 9:31pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

The GD in European History? Ummmm ... "The Soviets in '72: Bozos or Bolos?" I'm impressed. That plus must have been for sheer chutzpah.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Feb 27, 2011 9:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

The KGB tried to integrate themselves into the Bolo's.
Or was it the Bozo's?.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Feb 27, 2011 10:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

The CIA were working on the Bolos. The KBG went for the Bozos. They liked the clown noses, because it hid their Russian accents. "Vy do vee talk vunny? It is zis nose."

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Poster: midnightcarousel Date: Feb 27, 2011 9:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

It was a comparison of the Dead's approach to music with Nietzsche's Birth of Tragedy; I believe I posted about it here when I was writing it. It wasn't total BS but it was a stretch.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Feb 27, 2011 9:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

Much more impressive than my college Nietzsche paper, wherein I refuted him by comparing his ideas to Carlos Castaneda and Crack in the Cosmic Egg. Neither of which, I should point out, were assigned reading. I still remember it because, well, it's so stereotypically comical in retrospect.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Feb 28, 2011 4:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

That really is funny ... were you trying to live up to all the stereotypes or what? :) Didn't you say you switched majors to accommodate your Dead touring schedule?

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Feb 28, 2011 5:34am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

Yup, that was probably the same year. I was trying very hard to make 1979 into 1969. It was a very educational endeavor -- just didn't have a lot to do with anything as mundane as major requirements! I got serious later. I mean about academics. I was perfectly serious in '79, just about, well, different things :-)

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Feb 28, 2011 6:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

I understand :)

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Feb 27, 2011 11:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

Garcia actually said much the same thing in '87, when asked what happened to Dark Star:

"Really, Dark Star is a little of everything we do, all the time. So what happened to Dark Star was, it went into everything. Everything's got a little Dark Star in it.
I've never missed it, because what we were doing with it is everywhere. I mean, our whole second half is Dark Star, you could say. But I have nothing against Dark Star, except that really it's a minimal tune. There's really no tune. There’s just a couple of lines and that's it.
So it's hard for me to relate to what is it about Dark Star that people like, apart from the fact that we get weird in it.... So Dark Star is an envelope for me, not really a song."

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Poster: patkelleyPA Date: Feb 27, 2011 8:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

I'm not anywhere near college, and I love the GD's improv skills (which I am more than capable of "hearing"). I just don't think it's the be-all and end-all of GD songs, or "pieces," or "compositions," or "improvisational sections," or whatever you want to call them. In fact, playing all those random mixolydian scales up and down takes far less skill than most of their other "improvs." (I'm thinking Other One, Slipknot, some Elevens, even Space in the 80s and 90s). That's all.

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Poster: midnightcarousel Date: Feb 27, 2011 9:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

Yeah I am in full agreement with you on the theory end of things; the early dark stars (read: 1968) are not nearly as impressive to me as the ones to come (a few from 69, most of 1970, some of 71, all of 72). In the early days they rarely stepped outside the bounds of A mixolydian / E dorian.

Speaking of 69, happy anniversary to the Live/Dead dark star!

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Poster: user unknown Date: Feb 27, 2011 11:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

"I find it exceedingly odd that he is a fan of the Dead, though; to me the whole idea of Dark Star defines what the band IS to me."

If Dark Star "defines what the band IS", you are missing out on a lot of great music my friend.

"I'm not anywhere near college, and I love the GD's improv skills (which I am more than capable of "hearing"). I just don't think it's the be-all and end-all of GD songs, or "pieces," or "compositions," or "improvisational sections," or whatever you want to call them."

I have to agree with the esteemed counsellor on this point.

"We are all capable of listening, but not everyone can hear... "

And we do not all hear the same things in the same places. Though clichéd, two statements that ring with truth are:
1- different strokes for different folks
2-variety is the spice of life


This post was modified by user unknown on 2011-02-27 19:14:02

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Feb 27, 2011 11:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

"variety is the spice of life"

And without variety there would be no evolution.

Really, just wanted to say hi, Bill!

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Poster: user unknown Date: Feb 27, 2011 12:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

Hello Rob. Hope all is well in your world today.,

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Poster: midnightcarousel Date: Feb 27, 2011 12:42pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

"If Dark Star "defines what the band IS", you are missing out on a lot of great music my friend."

Not sure what you mean... the umbrella of "dark starness" encompasses all of what they do. The idea of spontaneity and group cohesion, that is. I didn't mean to say that Dark Star itself was the only thing worth listening to!

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Poster: user unknown Date: Feb 27, 2011 3:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

"I didn't mean to say that Dark Star itself was the only thing worth listening to!"

I fully understood that you weren't discounting everything except Dark Star. It just seemed you were discounting some of the tight 3 to 5 minute tunes, both originals and covers, that were just as entertaining as the more extended jams.

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Feb 27, 2011 8:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

"It really kills me that the whole idea of improvisational music is essentially dead to my generation; most people my age (college) don't even really know that it exists, and when I play something like dark star or even the 8/6/71 Hard to Handle with the outrageous 2-minute or whatever guitar solo from Garcia, they don't even hear it! It's hard not to lose faith in the ability of my friends when none of then even REACT to this music."

We The Sheeple Of Amerika - You Tube clip, mandatory viewing for youngsters

The Sheeple label seems to have originated in the United States and refers to people who tend to accept and follow everything at face value, especially if it is cited in mainstream media.

new_sheeple_dees.jpg

Sheeple (a portmanteau of "sheep" and "people") is a term of disparagement, in which people are likened to sheep.

It is often used to denote persons who voluntarily acquiesce to a perceived authority or suggestion without sufficient research to understand fully the ramifications involved in that decision, and thus undermine their own human individuality or in other cases give up certain rights. The implication of sheeple is that as a collective, people believe or do whatever they are told, especially if told so by a perceived authority figure believed to be trustworthy, without critically thinking about it or doing adequate research to be sure that it is an accurate representation of the real world around them. The term is generally used in a political, social, and sometimes in a spiritual sense.

The term is also used for those who are deemed inordinately tolerant, or welcoming, of government intrusion and regulation. In a column entitled "A Nation of Sheeple," columnist Walter E. Williams writes, "Americans sheepishly accepted all sorts of Transportation Security Administration nonsense. In the name of security, we've allowed fingernail clippers, eyeglass screwdrivers and toy soldiers to be taken from us prior to boarding a plane." This usage emphasizes that Americans sheepishly accept all sorts of imposed official nonsense. It describes those who blindly submit to the judgment of public servants or political parties as leading authorities, thereby empowering the civil government through their acquiescence.

We The Sheeple Of Amerika - You Tube clip, mandatory viewing for youngsters

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Feb 27, 2011 11:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

It's got words. It's got music. How do you define a song?

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Poster: midnightcarousel Date: Feb 27, 2011 12:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH- Over-rated!

Whatever, all I meant was that the similarities between any two dark stars, especially from different eras, are slimmer than between two random performances of a song like "Brown Eyed Women." Semantics! *barf*